LStev3234 wrote in message <19991122122149.17066.00001...@ng-fn1.aol.com>...
(FIrst quoting Henry:)
>>Doubtful abt this lineage if it is REALLY recognised by the late Dilgo >>Khyentse Rinpoche.
(and then storming:)
> So what? D. K. Rinpoche is DEAD. So you can't get him to do all your >thinking for you. When you gonna learn to think for yourself? Duh!
If I understand it correctly, it is not Henry who is quoting DKR as an authority. Is it not the Aroter people who claim the authority of DKR? And is not the problem that this appears perhaps to have been a lie? Now if they were not claiming that sort of authority, but "just" claiming visionary insight, they might have slightly fewer followers, but would be healthier and there would be no problem. Or do I misunderstand? Alex W
Alex Wilding writes: >If I understand it correctly, it is not Henry who is quoting DKR as an >authority. Is it not the Aroter people who claim the authority of DKR? And >is not the problem that this appears perhaps to have been a lie?
My understanding is that it is not a lie per se, but possibly a matter of interpretation. I know the circumstances and when I view them in the light of other western claims in this area, I reserve judgement on what constitutes recognition and what could be seen as affirmation, acknowledgement or just a friendly gesture. Any or all of these are possible, given the cultural misunderstandings that proliferate around these matters.
>Now if they were not claiming that sort of authority, but "just" claiming >visionary insight, they might have slightly fewer followers, but would be >healthier and there would be no problem.
Aroter is one of the healthiest dharma institutions I know of. Its purpose, modus operandi and ethical integrity appear to me to be based in a sincere agenda. Mary
I'm new to the world of Buddhism. I don't claim to know much of anything since
I've only read a few books and heard a few discussions on the subject. I just feel it is useless
to aruge about who is right or wrong, who is a better teacher and the like. From what
I've read it seems many of the writers have my-temple-is-bigger-than-yours disease. I think you
could all do much more for the greatest good by discussing the problems of this world and how
we all can make it a better place for everyone.
Joe Tarnow
-**** Posted from RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com/?a ****- Search and Read Usenet Discussions in your Browser - FREE -
> I know there are many schools of thought within >the Tibetan traditions which makes it a bit confusing to a newcomer, but any >advise would be helpfull.
Make your own descison about what lineage you should be with. If you choose Dzogchen in Wales, then go. Follow sane guidelines for connecting with a Lama and that is all you need. dana
Mary Finnigan wrote: > >> Aro gTer > >> Check with a search engine for their web site. It has an e-mail > >> address on it. They are based at Penarth. Henry Chia wrote: > >Mary, I find that the existence of this lineage seems to be doubtful.
Mary Finnigan replied:
> I don't give a flying **** whether this lineage exists or not. It does > exist actually, but what seems to get some people into a lather is > whether it's present holder has a right to describe himself thus or not. > Again, this seems to me to be irrelevant. Chogyam and Dechen have a > following of kind, sincere people around them. They practice diligently > and harm no-one. I regard your inclusion of them on your cult web site > as an example of blind prejudice. > Mary
Come on now Mary you seem quite happy to be convinced (and try to convince others) that some of the most respected and revered teachers in Tibetan Buddhism guilty of hypocrisy, an abuse of trust or worse on the basis of a few unsubstantiable allegations by western students. On the other hand when Henry feels that there is convincing evidence that the "Aro Ter" tradition is a fraud you call it "blind prejudice".
Why is it alright to spread certain kinds of unsubstantiated allegations in this usenet group and on the web but not alright for Henry to publish the fact that several of the lamas Ngakpa Chogyam claims as his teachers - - and whose names and pictures NC uses to give credibility and authenticity to what he is teaching - say that the Aro Ter tradition is not the genuine article?
Ngakpa Chogyam may be harmless and have a following of kind sincere people - but plenty of charlatans have appeared to be more or less harmless (at least until something went wrong) and there have been many who had followings of kind, sincere people around them. These things do not of themselves prove that "Aro Ter" is or is not a fraud.
Ngakpa Chogyam and Dechen may be 100% sincere, they may be kind, generous people and what they teach may even benefit people but is what they teach what they claim that it is? This is a perfectly reasonable question to ask - if the supermarket sold cartons of orange juice and people found they contained water (or even apple juice) most people would be unhappy - even though the water might quench their thirst.
Martin Boord who was Ngakpa Chogyam's first teacher, and his Tibetan teachers like Chime Rigdzin Rinpoche (who NC says recognised him as the rebirth of one "'a-Shul Pema Legden") and Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje have said that they feel the "Aro Ter" tradition is false - and any other learned Nyingma lama I've asked about it has said the same thing.
Why get yourself "into a lather" when Henry points this out?
> Phillip Gardner writes > >I am new to Tibetan Buddhism and am keen to join with others in the South > >Wales area in the U.K. to practise Dzogchen as taught along the lines of > >Sogyal Rinpoche or Lama Surya Das. These are two teachers i have read books > >by recently and am inspired. I know there are many schools of thought within > >the Tibetan traditions which makes it a bit confusing to a newcomer, but any > >advise would be helpfull. > You won't find Surya Das students in S.Wales and I strongly advise you > to steer clear of Sogyal. However, you will find: > Aro gTer ...
Mary
Given your usual uncompromising attitude to charlatans, frauds and snake-oil salesmen, I'm somewhat surprised to see you publicly suggesting "Aro gTer" to someone who is new to Tibetan Buddhism without attaching a great big CAVEAT EMPTOR.
As far as I can determine there is little evidence that "ARO gTÉR" and the "Ngak'phang [sic] Tradition" is more than something dreamed up or imagined by "Ngakpa Chogyam" himself.
In Tibetan "Aro" is an unusual name. The only Aro who is at all well known in Tibetan religious history is Aro Yeshe Jungney (a ro ye shes 'byung gnas) the teacher of rBa gom bSod rnams rGyal mtshan who was in turn the teacher of the famous Kha rag sGom chung. This A-ro was so called because, as a child, he was found by a nun laying like a corpse (ro) emitting the sound "A A". She took care of him and called him "A-ro" ("corpse [saying] 'AA'" / "corpse of AA"). This A-ro was the author of a text known as Aro's Mahayana Yoga (a ro'i theg chen naljor) and of "Aro's Great System of Guidance" (a ro'i khrid mo che don khor) which is also known as "The Esoteric Instructions of the Great Perfection according to Aro" (rdzogs chen a ro'i man ngag), "The Essential Spirituality of Aro" (a ro' thugs bcud) or "The Seven Sessions of Aro" (a ro thun bdun). It is a system of the mental class of Dzogchen (rdzogs chen sems sde) known as the tradition of Khams. Aro Yeshe Jungney held both the Chinese and Indian traditions of the Mental Class of Dzogchen during the seventh generation of their transmission. Although Atisha himself praised the oral instructions of Aro Yeshe Jungney, they were later attacked by many including Je Tsongkhapa's disciple Keydrubje.
You might recall that a couple of years ago I asked one of Ngakpa Chogyam's students if their "tradition" had anything to do with that of Aro Yeshe Jungney and I was told that it didn't. Curiously since then they have added something about Aro Yeshe Jungney to their web-site which seems to be based on what I wrote at the time. This and a few similar things give me the impression that they are making things up or filling in the gaps as they go along.
I also asked where the Aro Ter and it's terton were prophesised and authorised by Padmasambhava or Yeshe Tsogyal - since this is usually considered to be one of the important ways of determining the authenticity of a terton and terma - but I was given an answer to the effect that since this is a "mind terma" there is no prophecy etc.
Somehow I wasn't surprised by that answer nor am I surprised that there are no facts which might be easily checked in the History of the A-ro gTer lineage as given at http://www.aroter.org/history/history_toc.htm. I'm thinking about things like the full name of the terma, the title of the texts, any references to this terma or tradition in other texts or biographies etc; the names of places associated with "Jomo Chhi-'mèd Pema", "Gomchenma Pema 'ö-Zér", " Rang-rig Togden", "Khyungchen Aro Lingma", "'a-Shul Pema Legden", "Khalding Lingpa", "Ngak'chang A-Kyong Dudül Dorje" and the other characters associated with this lineage (no body else seems to have heard of any of these figures).
Maybe I'm wrong or overly cynical, but to me this whole thing looks like the product of a fertile imagination and might be rather good fun if it was only supposed to be a humorous work of fiction or a parody about Tibetan yogis. Asking people to take it seriously just seems to be taking advantage of and reinforcing some of the Shangri-la fantasies many people have about Tibet.
I replied to your comments about Chogyam and Dechen privately and I don't have much to add to it here. Not possible for me to defend them any more than I have done so far. Have you met and talked with Chogyam recently? Have you read his books? Or is your critique based on second hand information from people who already have an agenda? And dear Chris, I really do feel hurt at your use of the word *unsubstantiated*. I find myself back on the cracked record here ...never done this... always have more than one source... always check. Mary
They've had a major face-lift at the site since I last saw it -- and much needed. The first time I went there, I saw a picture of "Khepa" -- smeared with ashes, a huge potbelly, staring wildly into space. Sort of a cross between Nityananda, Da Free John and a drenched campfire.
I loved this part:
> Sanctimonious authority is the rigormortis of lineage. Fawning disciples > kissing ass are the maggots of lineage. Hope and fear are the dusty > bleached bone remains of lineage. Always be careful about the quality of > lineage!
Evidently the words of someone who didn't feel like kissing ass in order to become a Guru.
Mary wants us to believe June Campbell's unsubstantiated allegation against Kalu Rinpoche. Mary wants us to believe in Nicky Skye, the pen-name of an in-truth- anonymous serial victim of abuse. Mary wants us to believe that the so-called Aro gTer lineage "does actually exist" in spite of the evidence to the contrary. A little over a year ago, when Shannon Schroeder posted the old "Richard Gere and a baby gerbil" rumour, and Ross Nelson answered "No. It's just another rumor", it was the same Mary who jumped in to tell us " The RG story is not a rumour...it has been authenticated by several people..."
>Mary wants us to believe June Campbell's unsubstantiated allegation >against Kalu Rinpoche. >Mary wants us to believe in Nicky Skye, the pen-name of an in-truth- >anonymous serial victim of abuse. >Mary wants us to believe that the so-called Aro gTer lineage "does >actually exist" in spite of the evidence to the contrary. >A little over a year ago, when Shannon Schroeder posted the old >"Richard Gere and a baby gerbil" rumour, and Ross Nelson answered "No. >It's just another rumor", it was the same Mary who jumped in to tell us >" The RG story is not a rumour...it has been authenticated by several >people..."
I am flattered that you follow my contributions to arbt with such assiduous attention. I also wonder why you do this? And I should tell you that I don't *want* you to believe anything. Along with everyone else here, I say what I believe. Nada mas. Mary
Right! I've seen that one, what a hoot! Ever seen that advert in the Shambhala Sun for the vibrating pendants? Made by another "western terton"! How about Karma blah-blah Rinpoche? Long Hair, goatee and red robes, i can't remember his full name. Foundation for Dzogchen Studies or something like that.
Tim Knutton wrote in message <3843FDE4.D53C5...@unamax.com>... >> >How about this guy? >> >http://www.khepa.com/ I added >> Or there is this one: >> http://www.celticbuddhism.org/ >> Maybe we should start a collection? Tim again: >Right! I've seen that one, what a hoot! Ever seen that advert in the >Shambhala Sun for the vibrating pendants? Made by another "western >terton"!
It was only when JP pointed it out to me that I realised that the Celtic site is almost certainly a spoof. Slow of me, but I enjoyed the joke more for having been taken in! The funny thing about Khepa is that for all he talks about lineage, he never actually seems to give a mention to any of his teachers! (Though I didn't stay long at the site - maybe it is somewhere.) The mention of the "Ngak'phang style" makes it look like an Aro gTer spin-off. Alex W
> It was only when JP pointed it out to me that I realised that the Celtic > site is almost certainly a spoof. Slow of me, but I enjoyed the joke more > for having been taken in! > The funny thing about Khepa is that for all he talks about lineage, he never > actually seems to give a mention to any of his teachers! (Though I didn't > stay long at the site - maybe it is somewhere.) The mention of the > "Ngak'phang style" makes it look like an Aro gTer spin-off. > Alex W
I've been watching Khepa's page for a while now, he used to claim not have any human teachers. As the story goes, he was in a public library when Yeshe Tsogyal apeared to him, bigger than life. He fell to his knees and then drank wisdom nectar from her 'lotus'. This awoke memories of his past life as a wandering yogi in Tibet and he then revealed his 'termas'. He also says that he sends his students to other Dzogchen Masters in California such as Chagdud Rinpoche and Lama Tharchin.This is more or less how i remember it. He doesn't have that stuff posted on his site anymore. I'm going to look for the other guy's page i mentioned, i'll keep you posted. I never realized western tertons could be so much fun.
Alex Wilding writes: >It was only when JP pointed it out to me that I realised that the Celtic >site is almost certainly a spoof. Slow of me, but I enjoyed the joke more >for having been taken in! I was fooled too! >The funny thing about Khepa is that for all he talks about lineage, he never >actually seems to give a mention to any of his teachers! (Though I didn't >stay long at the site - maybe it is somewhere.) The mention of the >"Ngak'phang style" makes it look like an Aro gTer spin-off.
I checked on this because the style and content seemed to be a clone of Aroter and yes, Khepa is associated. I gather that the connection is friendly but not close. Mary
> How about Karma blah-blah Rinpoche? Long Hair, goatee and red robes, i > can't remember his full name. Foundation for Dzogchen Studies or > something like that.
> I've been watching Khepa's page for a while now, he used to claim not have any > human teachers. As the story goes, he was in a public library when Yeshe Tsogyal > apeared to him, bigger than life. He fell to his knees and then drank wisdom > nectar from her 'lotus'. This awoke memories of his past life as a wandering > yogi in Tibet and he then revealed his 'termas'. He also says that he sends his > students to other Dzogchen Masters in California such as Chagdud Rinpoche and > Lama Tharchin.This is more or less how i remember it. He doesn't have that stuff > posted on his site anymore. I'm going to look for the other guy's page i > mentioned, i'll keep you posted. > I never realized western tertons could be so much fun.
Remind me of Lu Shen Yen of True Buddha School.
Care to give me a list of such persons whose lineage's existence seems to be very doubtful?
On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 11:50:28 -0800, Tim Knutton <t...@unamax.com> wrote:
>> How about Karma blah-blah Rinpoche? Long Hair, goatee and red robes, i >> can't remember his full name. Foundation for Dzogchen Studies or >> something like that.
>It seems less ornate and exotic than it once was.
>Tim Knutton
I don't know the web address but there was, for a day at least, a suspecious Dorji Porji who claims to have been a practicing Tibetan Buddhist for 20 years who think exactly like DT trying to convince others of his authenticity.
As a matter of fact, on a number of occassions DT himself has claimed that he has been practicing Insight Meditation and Buddhist meditation for decades. I think he should go on the *falsie* list as well.
Having just returned from a trip to Wales and other parts of the UK, I was struck by the following:
The one Aro gTer person I visited was quite self impressed with her "sacred" and therfore "untouchable" relics. I was offered the opportunity to see a small book containing pic's and various writings concerning the Aro gTer folks, the page was turned to a specific picture of R and his wife, and when I got bored with the picture and started to leaf through the other pages the book was immediately grabbed from my hands with the comment "you can't see that." Was I going to go to Vajra Hell if I peeked without permission? I didn't ask, in order to be polite. When inquiring about dancing (lama dancing to the uninformed) I was told that they weren't "allowed" to learn any more dances as R. had instructed them to make all their costumes first. I fail to see why a custume is necesary to express one's spirituality but again I was silent as it would have served no purpose to ask a question which would have been seen as offensive. Needless to say, my visit was mercifully short. I have no idea what R is actually teaching. I just know he has at least one neurotic student. So what? Every teacher has neurotic students. Every teacher has his or her own neurosis to deal with in the process of becoming/being a teacher. Caveot Emptor. After leaving Glastonbury (home of a few thousand new age/spiritualy enlightened/crystal weilding/guru channelling nutcases from hell) I traveled to Edinburgh where I saw (among other things) the famous Scottish Crown Jewels. Gad, what a miserable collection of metal and rocks, notwithstanding the fact that many folks were killed in order to possess or not possess them, for whatever reasons. And it is still a big deal for the Scots to have their crown jewels which were carefully hidden away from the other owners of other crown jewels. It reminded me of the person I had visited in Wales and I didn't see any difference between her untouchable relics and the glass-encased, religiously guarded toys in the Castle at Edinburgh. It seems inevitable that adults will again revisit the stages of a two year old in the process of exploring spiritual practices, including the idea of "mine" and "not yours" and all that stuff. Of course there is a great deal of suffering generated when they find out that their projections of spirituality and specialness are nothing but ego trips and don't mean a hill of beans to anyone else but them. But we have to go through it, as experience is the best (and often only) teacher. There is a lot of suffering generated with the idea of specialness, inner and outer.
LStev3234 wrote: <<It seems inevitable that adults will again revisit the stages of
a two year old in the process of exploring spiritual practices, including the idea of "mine" and "not yours" and all that stuff. Of course there is a great deal of suffering generated when they find out that their projections of spirituality and specialness are nothing but ego trips and don't mean a hill of beans to anyone else but them. But we have to go through it, as experience is the best (and often only) teacher. There is a lot of suffering generated with the idea of specialness, inner and outer.>>
Heaven forbid! You mean that *my* guru is not the best guru in the world? Even the *only* guru in the world? And that not *all* redemption must be mediated by him?
How cruel can you be? What kind of Buddhist are you?
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